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Caterham v's SEAT ownership

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Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:55 am PostPost subject: Caterham v's SEAT ownership
andybell
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so this thread is as much so i have a reference point than anything so I dont expect any feedback. I have updated the XLSX with all possible option for racing taking into account both Caterham and Super Copa http://1drv.ms/1H3gTvm

Car Options
selling car as a package for 18k reference (car/spares/2 sets of tyres and probably could get more but including other surrounding gubbins)
buying R300 https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/60127/caterham-r300-sadev-sequential-racecar 25950
or https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/57269/caterham-r300-race-car which is 28750 but has 2 extra sets of tyres anyway
buying super copa https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/60075/seat-leon-supercopa 26500

Transport
I can re-use the existing trailer I have for the Caterham but for the copa would need to sell and buy a new tilt bed one. Currently have a BJ clubman with a GT motorsport covered modification (usually 1500+VAT for that cover). Lets say I can sell for 3000 (based on https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/56836/brian-james-tilt-bed-trailer-with-gt-frame-an which is bigger)

Looking at copa trailer would need something like a BJ Race Transporter 4 if wanting covered (better security for 'stuff') http://www.brianjames.co.uk/pdf/2015RTBroUK_2.pdf or a BJ TT http://www.brianjames.co.uk/pdf/BJT_UK_2011q3TT_2.pdf.
Also needs to take into account low ride height of copa(great point)/width (1.875m) and length (4.48m) for a mk2.

That means a TT tilt bed 250-3400 would be 4288 (3209+365 ex vat) - extras of tyre rack (tracker is tempting...)
brace yourself... RC4 would be 10184 (7689+399+399 ex vat) and extra of tyre rack/fuel cans - holy moly mother of craziness.

It appears that for my tow car covered trailer (thankfull from finance pov) would not be an option

Purchase of R300 and initial things required (some known some guess)
Need
hans modification - 50 to make plate up
1 sets of extra wheels/tyres required with tyres sometimes get with car (want 1 dry 1 wet set minimum)

Would want
use existing vbos
1 sets of extra wheels/tyres required with tyres sometimes get with car


Purchase of Super Copa and initial things required (some known some guess)
Need
hans modification 0
Would need lance/bottle etc.. for air jack system. From reading would need a lance, hosing & bottle so
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/air-jacks-accessories/krontec-easy-push-air-jack-lance-0-40-bar 281
and some other random stuff which i cant figure out so say 1000 all in
Set of tyres

Would want
could use existing vbox but may see what I get before spending more
that car comes with 3 sets of wheels (not sure if that includes set on car)
and spare wing

Cost Difference
So at this point got a cost to initial of ownership of
Caterham of 27950 (25950 car +2000 wheels/tyres) - 18000=9950
Super copa of 29700 (26500 car +1000 air jack stuff + 1300 trailer + 900 tyres) - 18000 =11700 for the open trailer
Super copa of 35600 (26500 car +1000 air jack stuff + 7200 trailer + 900 tyres) - 18000 =17600 for the closed trailer erp

What do you get lap wise capability?
At a high level the cars from a lap level are talking (around Knockhill) if driven perfectly the below times. This is of course not based around my abilities just what the car can do note:
R300 in the 58's (possible 57) for an R300 with sequental
Super Copa 55/56 from the project build thread posting and if you go upgrade route (ala Andrew M) could go 54.

Maintenance/reliability aspect
Right this is where its getting into fluffy guesswork as you dont know the life of what you buy so I am presuming a chance of equal luck (good or bad). Also presume they are as reliable as each other as they are both designed to work together component wise

Tyre cost (per set) for race conditions (ignoring SLS for now)
R300 475
Super Copa 900

Caterham You would want 2 sets of ZZR (dry) and 1 set of ZZS (wet). According to Caterham website thats 475 per set (http://uk.caterhamcars.com/sites/default/files/content/uk/documents/2014_caterham_superlight_r300_championship_-_may_14.pdf)
Super Copa So you are into more of a world of hurt here with dry/inter/wet in R18. According to the website I found for the slick NEUMATICO SLICK 265/660R18 G76D FF008 320 euro and same for wet NEUMATICO RAIN 265/660R18 B92W 497 320 euro - seems cheap to me for R18's? Strike that I actually think they mean you need 4 of that cost which makes more sense Smile

Brake pads
R300 front 100 rear 170
Super Copa front 220 rear 125

At this point i was going to go through other comparison but i think its safe to say Seat ownership would be a lot more expensive. If we presume need 3 new sets of tyres per year thats a cost difference alone of 1275. Brake pad difference is double.

Now in talking to Andrew M his feeling was the cars are very much bulletproof and true cost is if you have to get any of the panels repaired due to bumping. He has ride height slightly higher to ensure damage is minimised to under skirt as they are very expensive to replace.

Ownership experience
    Tuition easier in copa as people more likely to know how to drive that type of car whereas nobody up here seems to have a clue about caterham style cars (ards tuition wise)
    dont get wet in copa Wink
    Easier to get car looked at as morrison's in stirling obviously run one and have experience and know the cars to quote 'inside out'.
    I know a little about Caterham, zero about Copa but DCL has owned and upgrade and R400 so has quality setup experience. Nobody has real race setup experience in scotland about Caterham.


edited 22nd Aug update xlsx and linked. made mistake on costing...
edited 17th Aug based on chat with Andrew M
edited 6th Aug to add in tilt/wide bed trailer cost uncovered
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Last edited by andybell on Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:23 pm; edited 18 times in total
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:39 pm PostPost subject:
AK
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TYRES - you dont need to stick with recommend. Get the size and give Ronnie @ Wheels Around a bell to see what prices he can do (and for what).

Fee's last 2 sets of slicks have been around the 750 mark for 4. Wets we've struck good deals (new!) from outgoing Pirelli stock (direct from their motorsport dept) and new softs on ebay for about 300.

Inters (MSA 1b) - ~500 for 4 (Toyo R888) - If you planned B1 for SMRC i'd go Dunlop DZ03G for dry

These are 255/17 (for 9" wide rim 17" wheel)... so similar to SuperCopa I would think.

AirJack 'stuff' - check RaceCarsDirect pit equip.

Cameras - You have a videop VBOX?! Just remove and fit in new car.
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:48 pm PostPost subject:
andybell
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is it wrong to want HD video rather than standard? Plus both of those cars have dataloggers (stack v's AIM MXL pista) but i am unsure what level of logging it does. Appears they may not have GPS (hard to track down looks like copa only has it if you buy it and stack doesnt i believe have it) so would get engine/temp information etc.. but i dont think you would get a 'how you drove the track' option that vbox does.

Thinking was performance box and go pro then use the race stuff you use to analyse and saves de-wiring all the existing stuff for vbox as its also handling brake/throttle inputs.

excellent information on tyres Thumbs Up
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:59 pm PostPost subject:
AK
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Fee's car has logging overload Laughing

VBOX, Syvecs (no gps) & AIM MXL Pista (no gps).

We havent even bothered to look/use at the AIM stuff as its just repeating info from ECU, and if it had GPS it would just repeat VBOX. We can combine VBOX and syvecs logs for overlays so suits me fine.

My car just has Syvecs & VBOX logging.

I 100% agree that decent HD footage is MILES better than Video VBOX potato footage Laughing but dont factor that into costs. That can be done later - i.e keep the VVbox then sell separate if you want, or upgrade it to HD version.

Give Andrew Morrison a bell - http://www.morrisons-garage.co.uk/ I'm sure he'd be willing to let you have a look round his car, and give some first hand feed back on what they are like to live with (read: keep running)
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:33 pm PostPost subject:
andybell
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cool i definitely think the last paragraph is key point there as I (kind of know) real world Caterham ownership experience/cost.

I dropped him a mail and the lovely man responded straight away to say he was not going to the track day but would be available for chat at next SMRC meeting.
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Last edited by andybell on Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:51 pm PostPost subject:
David Long
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If money matters then I think it might help to 'think weight'. Weight is what stresses cars and one of the reasons the Caterham so successful. The cost to drag a kg round KH is probably fairly constant for all cars.
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:56 pm PostPost subject:
andybell
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David Long wrote:
If money matters then I think it might help to 'think weight'. Weight is what stresses cars and one of the reasons the Caterham so successful. The cost to drag a kg round KH is probably fairly constant for all cars.


thats a great point as the combination of low weight/power I currently have does mean the stresses on everything are quite low hence wear is incredibly low.
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:06 pm PostPost subject:
HummuH
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On the Supercopa:

1. Whatever you think it's going to cost you, double it.

These are very specialist cars with, mostly, bespoke "wear and tear" parts. Getting your hand on the simplest of things can sometimes take quite some time and chances are you are going to have to pay someone to fix any issues you have, particularly if engine or gearbox related.

2. If you expect to jump in a Supercopa and do 55/56s laps I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed.

It's taken Andrew M many years of peddling his Supercopa round Knockhill to hit those times, also bearing in mind he's gone down the big turbo route too. Jason did a mighty 55's lap in his lower spec car but again, Jason is a very experienced driver.

You will need to drive very aggressively to hit those times and it comes at a cost to the wear and tear on the car as kerbs will be getting flown over. IIRC, when the Supercopa's raced at Knockhill, they were doing high 53s laps in a lower spec than todays cars. I don't know the precise figure but I think minimum throttle was 40% on a lap with the bulk of it at 100% throttle. So, even in the corners they're constantly on throttle and changing the balance of the car with left foot brake application.

I don't want to seem like a miserable bastard although I am, I know, but personally I think you're mental jumping from what you have to something like a Supercopa after 3 race meetings.

When I first started, my car was doing 63s laps. In 4 years we've got it down to 56s laps through a combination of me getting slightly better, developing the car ourselves and, when required, throwing money at it. More than that, we've had great fun along the way.

As AK says, try and have a chat to Andrew Morrison, or Alistair who runs his car. If you do go down this route do it with your eyes open and fully aware of cost so you don't get stung.

On the other hand, go buy one, I want more Supercopa's at Knockhill!
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:30 pm PostPost subject:
andybell
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yep i did say (excluding my skills) on timings i was talking theoretical maximum - i could have the car 10 years and only do a 59 Smile I am fully aware of my lack of skills !

I have now arranged to talk with Andrew on 16th at SMRC so thats really going to nail down real world costs.

Its not that i am mental (well just a little)i just like to (overly) explore options and know exactly what is going on. I also like at times to throw myself in and try and learn so either option would for sure do that.

I am a very binary 1 and 0 person so once its all laid out I can then see what i do and know what implications of that are. e.g. i really fancied doing a full season down south with car looked after but the thought of spending 20k in 1 year and having current car is um hard to swallow for my finances. I would rather spend same money have a car and race a season up here. You then have a solid base for year on year

i always found you quite cheery actually Smile And it would be very pretty to look at so perhaps i could just bring it up to Knockhill and pretend i drive it.
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:01 pm PostPost subject:
HummuH
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hehe Very Happy

That's fine, I like a binary style decision making process but you need to button down on your costs a bit before it becomes that black and white as I reckon you're being very optimistic. First year ownership, assuming you do a season at Knockhill to keep it local/cheap, will cost approximately 45,000 to 50,000 including the car and a suitable trailer would be my wager.

On the trailer for example. You will need a wide tilt-bed trailer, probably with some additional ramping. You cannot get the front end on and off with normal ramp angles, the splitter sits about 20mm off the ground and it's a full flat floor on them. There is no way you're getting a trailer that will take the 'Copa without putting any cash into it.

Also, check out Andrew's spares package when you speak to him on the 16th Very Happy

Small things too. Like you're a tall chap, very slender too. Every chance you'll need to adjust pedal position, steering wheel and seat position. The seat might be too wide for you so you get a new seat. All of a sudden, there's 1k's worth of work/cost and 2 weeks down the drain before you've started.
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:05 pm PostPost subject:
andybell
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HummuH wrote:
hehe Very Happy


to translate: look you daft skinny boy with no race skills you need to wind your neck in and realise the reality Wink

i kid i kid (actually that statement is pretty right on the mark, Mark!). yep all this research is well before i plan on doing anything (probably next jan/feb?) so with luck by time that day comes i know exactly what initial/ongoing costs are and any 'oh shit i hit a wall' costs or 'oh dear the car as bought needs new disks/pads/tyres' scenario.

As my money is finite then it would be more about not doing racing and fixing as my money tree still still hasnt arrived after my ARDS test was sat.

As i find out costs or anything else relevant will bump top thread just in case anyone else gets copa fever.
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:12 pm PostPost subject:
HummuH
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Very Happy
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:45 pm PostPost subject:
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Just don't get a bloody yellow one Very Happy
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:51 pm PostPost subject:
andybell
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oh so does that mean people get to reserve colours so um there is the whitey'blue one thats in SMRC, Andrews' is red, not sure about the one from projects thread as pictures are all dead unfortunately. the copa mafia as it were.

Can i reserve a luminous pink vinyl wrap for whatever car i get with some hello kitty motifs.
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Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:54 pm PostPost subject:
AK
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Andrew's is Yellow!
Jason's is Yellow!

The red one you are talking about isnt a SuperCopa. I think thats a CupraR (not Barry Forbes')
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